Contact Racing

[pete_95973 4,383]

I am not a hardcore racing lover in GTA so obviously I come from a different perspective.  But it amazes me how often we all apologize to each other for contact in racing when the game has a built in function to make it a non issue.  

I was just reading some vetting notes about people getting good notes cause they apologized.  Then I see people in the shoutbox apologizing for hitting them in a contact race in a playlist.  Saturday during Two Bros during one of the contact races the most commonly spoken word was "sorry" during the race. 

I know people here do love contact racing and to each their own, but I really am getting to the point where I just don't have any interest in it aside from a few tracks (like American Mile). 

[grjkie 727]

Why? Because people apologize? 

Edited March 27, 2017 by grjkie
(I prefer non-contact but I'll do either)

[pete_95973 4,383]

Apologizing is done because someone regrets what happened.  If we have a tool to eliminate that from happening, such as non contact racing, why don't we use it more? 

I am not meaning to be critical.  I am actually genuinely curious.  Because personally I just don't enjoy the contact.  I feel like I am concentrating on it more than anything else and it hurts my enjoyment.  Even if I don't fuck anyone up by hitting them I don't enjoy it as much.  And it really upsets me to hit someone and cost them a race.  We often say, "well that is contact racing, don't worry about it."  But we wouldn't have to if we just set it to non contact.

[starmonkeykiller 493]

23 minutes ago, pete_95973 said:

Apologizing is done because someone regrets what happened.  If we have a tool to eliminate that from happening, such as non contact racing, why don't we use it more? 

I am not meaning to be critical.  I am actually genuinely curious.  Because personally I just don't enjoy the contact.  I feel like I am concentrating on it more than anything else and it hurts my enjoyment.  Even if I don't fuck anyone up by hitting them I don't enjoy it as much.  And it really upsets me to hit someone and cost them a race.  We often say, "well that is contact racing, don't worry about it."  But we wouldn't have to if we just set it to non contact.

I like both so have no real issue with settings but there is a much better feeling to passing another driver rather than driving through them. And accidents happen almost every race irl so it does add a certain realism

Edited March 27, 2017 by starmonkeykiller

[Dodge 7,265]

As a racing enthusiast, contact racing brings an added challenge to the race. The same feeling you get while racing contact, the nervousness, the possibility of damaging someone else's race, maybe even claustrophobia in some fashion, is what makes the racing more exciting for me. The thrill of making a pass, running defensive lines, out braking the other guy. That's the real challenge in racing. Making laps is only half of it.  I can't speak for everyone. But I  do appreciate your viewpoint on the matter. Most racing in our Crew is done Non-Contact. Just for the simple fact that nobody gets pissed at anybody else. Some courses require Non-Contact. Although I've heard many people get just as pissed about poles being dropped in a NC race as getting punted in a corner in a Contact race. 

I guess what I'm getting at, is Contact racing brings another element into the racing. Other cars. That can be very exciting. But also very frustrating. We used to use Noncontact races in Vetting PLS. With one contact race on an oval just to see how they react. That's why you see the Notes. 

I don't expect anyone to rule out a gameplay mode, but I understand sticking to one more than the other. 

[starmonkeykiller 493]

Perfectly said dodge.

[Con 5,719]

My two cents: I used to panic heavily in Contact racing for all the obvious reasons. Until I watched the viddis DC shared with us about racing etiquette (thanks @DavidCore89). They have helped me a lot in avoiding the wrecks I was once so guilty of, you know stuff like, he who enters the turn first should have the right of way even if it means you have to brake behind them. I find i don't apologize as much as i used to and that's because of what i learned about courtesy and etiquette, especially when racing with family. With randoms...you hit me, I will find you and hit you. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by ConGamePro

[Banketelli 3,655]

I don't think all the apologizing should necessarily count against contact racing. I just think "sorry" is being overused. Multiple reasons for that. One of them being the big racing etiquette debate the crew had last year. Another one is that the tracks get crazier and crazier so naturally more crashes will occur. Apologizing for something on the stunt races shouldn't be necessary. The tracks are meant for craziness, there's so much going on, loads of situations where one will lose control of the car, so we all know clean racing is impossible.

It's doesn't feel like the most of the races are run as non-contact anymore. Contact racing has steadily gained popularity and it feels like it's close to 50/50 today. I prefer non-contact, but it seems the majority of the crew favor contact, so that's the way we are going. And I can understand the reasons why. Other than the extra intensity, the satisfaction of overtaking, it also adds some randomness allowing more people to fight for the win.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Banketelli

[grjkie 727]

Great points and I agree with everyone. For me it is a different challenge, I prefer non-contact but like all who replied I feel excited when I overtake someone, and I usually say I'm sorry when I cause an accident. I don't mind saying it, and I feel I owe it because, I try to keep up with the fastest here and sometimes it works for me and sometimes i fuck it up. And I'm sorry  

I see your point Pete, don't take stunt tracks and contact racing that seriously with us, shit WILL happen, we have been doing contact a lot more than we used to that's also a fact and look at it as well like a different learning experience, you will get more comfortable with it I believe... And like Banks said for instance stunt tracks have a lot of crap going on, on top of other racers, bowling pins, bowling balls, tunnels with obstacles, lag(the worst enemy of contact racing), maybe even randoms etc etc.

All said, don't get angry with me specifically if I say I'm sorry because I bumped you or something similar... I feel that when I cause something I feel responsible hence the apology, I also feel I do it more often than I should, I try to keep up with the fastest, I try not to mess it up, and the way I see it when I cause an accident it usually means that race will be over for me because I won't be fighting for podium, and that's fine

I know you're a killer, look at this as analogy. I have no idea your DM preferences but I hate owned weapons. We can do it between us or even other crews with confidence that people will respect rules. I like DMs as well but on owned weapon maps I just get explosively OWNED, I feel I know how to shoot as well and I hate explosives  but as you have seen for sure DMs with owned weapons are a rocket fest, or a grenade fest etc 

I try to compete though, the analogy is not the best but you see my point right? It's a different type of racing, it takes some getting used to and like most I prefer NC, but I feel more fulfilled winning a contact race for some reason(not some reason, it's because it is a LOT harder to win them than regular NC). Don't not race with us Pete, don't miss a race PL because it may be contact, you can still have fun, just try to drive more defensively(sort of hypocritical coming from me because I feel I am an aggressive racer, I brake a lot not to wipe anyone out but I cause a lot of crashes as well) and hope for the best, in general it is not that bad here with us... And despite being here to compete, win or lose, personally I am here because I enjoy hanging with you guys, I enjoy winning and competition but that's the bonus  

[Fido_le_muet 5,198]

I love both !

Non contact almost feels like a time trial because nothing can ruin your race, except poles or destructibles. Other than that, there can be the occasionnal pressure from someone who's closing in on you but basically, there's not much else to do than sticking to your trajectory. And since there's no catchup and slipstream, I believe it's always the same bunch of people winning, leaving almost no chance to others who could get bored of never having a shot at winning. I love that against randoms though

I believe I enjoy contact racing more. More than before actually, because our group has come to grip with it now. Yes it's much more frustrating but also much more rewarding. It's the real racing. You have to actually consider the other racers on track with you and adapt your racing to them. It's much more satisfying to win when you have to find the right time to pass someone safely without ruining your race or theirs. I really enjoyed that suring SRL last sunday. Track was tight and I loved how I had to wait behind someone until I could pass him cleanly. Sometimes pressuring the guy in front until he makes a mistake. That's why I love endurance races the most. Contact on oval tracks isn't the same, especially because we have catchup on, meaning we can do some bold, crazy moves without much of an impact on the overall race (except in the last few laps). I think it could be interesting to run these without catchup from time to time, forcing us to be cleaner in our racing, be more mindful of others. Anyway, I am having a blast with these long contact races. Not so much when the races are only 3 or 5 laps because there's no strategy involved. It is so much more interesting when there's a bit of strategy involved, and I loved that during SRL with the two mandatory pit stops. It didn't have a real impact because the pit lane was so small and it didn't really have an impact but I think it could be very interesting in the future with longer and/or slower pitlanes. Something costing you 10-20 seconds. That would be awesome. I will definitely try to add those in my future creations.

Overall, I believe contact racing is the more complete experience, mainly on longer races (from 15 minutes to 1+ hour). Yes it can be very frustrating but I believe we will all get better at it overtime and will all enjoy it more and more.

Oh and about the apologizing thing, I'm so guilty of it ! I always say I'm sorry when there's contact between me and someone else but that's mainly because of lag. Unfortunately, you can't be sure where you are on someone else's screen and a small touch on your screen could be a big asshole move on another. I'll try to say it less now

Edited March 28, 2017 by Fido_le_muet

[Squirrel 5,180]

For me I'm very much in favour of contact. Non-contact is just a big group time trial. Good for improving personal bests but to me it's not racing. I'm far from one of the fastest drivers in the crew but I know how to defend a position. Being able to get in front because a couple of guys have made a mistake and then holding the racing line making it difficult to overtake is an aspect of racing and generally the only time I get a win. (It's my line :D)

With the new stunt props we can now make wider tracks without all the obstacles. A non-contact race on a track like my Suzuka would be pretty dull. Same with the other real track recreations, these tracks are designed to handle contact and slipstream in most cases.

Non-contact has it's uses for racing with randoms who just want to wreck you but with the crew we can race with respect and the more we race together with contact on the better it gets.

[DavidCore89 7,404]

I always host non-contact, so the fastest player wins, very rarely do I hear randoms complaining.

I do enjoy some of the contact races in the crew, but only a handful of them make contact racing exciting, the contact land races just frustrate me.

I tend to get smashed around a lot in contact street races for being too cautious and patient around others, then I get caught up at the back and get smashed around even more.

In other racing games where the cars have more weight and things are more realistic, I never wish that non-contact or ghosting existed, and that's within a community with values no different to this one, but GTA is much different, then there's the big lag with certain players to consider.

For many reasons I don't take racing in GTA very seriously, I have other games for that kinda thing. I think that's why I enjoy the oval contact races the most - If I have contact I want it to be a laugh, not frustrating 

 

[zmurko 7,622]

Contact racing can be extremely enjoyable, satisfying and rewarding if the right conditions are met (or at least most of them) and that includes track design, lag, players attitudes and if most players involved are of similar speed & skill level, but that can only be learned by doing more contact racing.

Funny enough, I find non-contact racing to be of much more competitive nature, probably because you have to be very fast and consistent to be in front (especially in this crew), where in contact racing those in a pack should be going slower as they're not going as fast as they could be by not taking ideal racing lines, breaking more etc and if you do fall behind (by making a mistake or crashing) you do have a chance to get back.

But yeah, it's almost like 2 completely different animals, both fun and enjoyable in their own way and I love them both!

[Crawford1872 2,587]

Recently I have noticed our creators building and hosts selecting jobs that were better suited to contact racing, this imo is half the battle, I also like the srl qualifying formula (fastest lap = 1st not last) regardless I have enjoyed it more recently on most tracks, it's more forgiving and varied than most other racing games I find anyway. I've personally found myself causing far less accidents than I did when I joined, and apologise partially because it means I've screwed someone else up and also so if I don't say sorry and it's down to lag, it means I find out and can be careful. I do think we would see less accidents if we took the time to spread the grids out slightly/standing starts. 

 

[no_snacks 3,345]

Contact racing can be one of the most fun and enjoyable aspects of this game, but only if the right settings are used for the track, vehicle class and lobby size etc.  If the settings are poorly chosen, then it can be one of the most frustrating aspects of the game.

I know where you're coming from @pete_95973, but a lot of the problems with contact racing - even lag to some degree - can be solved/reduced with some prior planning and carefully chosen settings.  I think you'll enjoy it a lot more under those conditions.

The host can't just turn contact on because they feel like having a contact race or because someone in the lobby asked for it.  Careful thought has to go into each race that you host for it to work properly.

Too many times we see a technical track, a 12 player lobby with players of various levels of driving ability, contact on, catch-up off and a lap count set to 2.  Ummm.....what do you think is going to happen?  The host and the other people starting at the front will take off and may or may not have a decent battle amongst themselves while the people at the back will get caught up in each others mistakes, crashes and downed poles while they scramble for position and make "do or die" moves knowing the race will be over in a couple of minutes.  Those people will just generally have a shitty time while saying sorry over and over again.  That race should've been set to non-contact, or the lap count raised to 5 or 6 laps and have catch-up and/or slipstream turned on. (depending on track layout)

For an example, for most races in the Fun Down Under playlist, we often turn slip stream off, catch-up on and set the lap count so the race lasts approx 8 to 10 minutes.  The tracks are also chosen specifically for their layout, track width (very important), quality of prop work, CP placement and overall flow.  Most of the races turn out to be awesome fun with more laughter than apologies.

Players can take their time to make a pass because they know there are enough laps to catch the leaders.  Catch-up will help keep the lead group in sight of the pack and help someone get back into the race if they crash or get taken out early on.  Of course it's not the purist form of racing, but we're not there to win at all costs, we're there to enjoy the close racing, the dicing for position, the occasional big crash and of course to have a bit of fun.  We don't care who wins, in fact we often stop at the finish line and argue over who's going to take the win. 

We still say sorry when we take someone out (BTW, there's nothing wrong with saying it), but because the race settings are set up to accommodate a contact race, there always seems to be little or no frustration.  Even with catch-up on, the quick racers still tend to win the majority of races, but there's always that chance for an upset win by one of the regular "back-markers".  Regardless of who wins, there's nearly always close, clean and most importantly fun racing in every race.

See you at FDU this week? 

Edited March 28, 2017 by no_snacks

[Squirrel 5,180]

Just going to follow on that post from @no_snacks with a video showing exactly what he means. The race had a lot of contact but it was still close throughout with an unexpected winner. It also had a good combination of clean racing plus good etiquette as well as people being taken out at the start but coming back into contention later.

 

[Arruda 718]

"Sorry" has become so ubiquitously used that is borderline meaningless these days. Almost whenever two cars touch each other you hear it. To me, it has become ingrained to say it, and I say it whether I am truly apologetic for an overly agressive move that ended badly or for a slight and inconsequential touch whose true fault I'm unaware of.

I prefer contact racing quite a lot, but then I'm not bothered by random crashes and never really was. When playing against randoms, defensive driving and avoiding being taken out is one of my favourite aspects of the game. I get pissed off when a win is taken from me, but get conversely happy when 1st and 2nd collide, turning my 3rd place into a victory.

Problem though, is that when not against randoms, at some point, you're more concerned about other people than yourself, because there will always be people who whine and/or rage quit, which leaves a bad taste. I'm more concerned about accidently ruining the race of one of those than having my race ruined. That pressure, along with the relatively recent (and on my opinion idiotic) policy of "waiting" after a crash has ruined contact racing in the crew for me. Many times I've seen people waiting, after having taken me out, for things which I'm pretty convinced weren't their fault. Then they not only lose their position to me, but to the rest of the crowd as well. All because they are more concerned about me thinking they took an unfair advantage than with the race itself. In the end, the result of the race is a bit of a charade.

Curiously, contact racing must be one of the very few gaming aspects that I enjoy more doing with randoms than with the crew. For all the above reasons, I prefer playing non-contact among us these days. It's not as fun, but not stressful either. I'd rather it being boring than people getting mad at each other. 

[Beez 5,091]

Non-contact racing is like a death match where everyone is shooting blanks. 

I prefer contact racing. To me it is way more exciting and rewarding, especially in the slower classes. I'd vote for it every time although when I do host stuff I try to be discerning on what racks to set set to contact or non-contact. @no_snacks post opened my eyes to the fact I have had bad setting for some races in the past, I will put more thought into that in the future. Thanks dude.

I don't say sorry for bumping or even rear-ending. If I take you out or make you lose position due to a mistake I made then I will apologize and try to give you your position back. Otherwise stay in the gas and keep racing. 

[pete_95973 4,383]

Thanks for the replies everybody.  It is good to know everyone's thoughts and reasons behind them.  I don't think I will ever enjoy contact as much as some.  But part of that is because I am just not much of a racer in general.  Maybe if and when that changes I can appreciate it more. 

[skip_rat 447]

2 hours ago, Arruda said:

Problem though, is that when not against randoms, at some point, you're more concerned about other people than yourself, because there will always be people who whine and/or rage quit, which leaves a bad taste. I'm more concerned about accidently ruining the race of one of those than having my race ruined. That pressure, along with the relatively recent (and on my opinion idiotic) policy of "waiting" after a crash has ruined contact racing in the crew for me. Many times I've seen people waiting, after having taken me out, for things which I'm pretty convinced weren't their fault. Then they not only lose their position to me, but to the rest of the crowd as well. All because they are more concerned about me thinking they took an unfair advantage than with the race itself. In the end, the result of the race is a bit of a charade.

This pretty much sums it up for me too and is one of the factors in my decision to stop playing GTA.

[Crawford1872 2,587]

I would say the waiting part has maybe been taken a bit too literally, it doesn't/shouldn't mean stop where you are but rather if you can slow up without causing a crash to let someone back through then do it. Otherwise I'd be all for an "it'll even itself out" policy but it wouldn't work imo due to some people being more cautious than others/different driving styles, I'm not saying we need a policy overhaul or anything but we're learning when it comes to settings and track design so it would be silly not to talk about it also.

[ssracingn2 935]

I prefer noncontact to contact because I am afraid of screwing up someone elses race. I am one to say sorry alot. The reasoning is because of there is a crash ahead of me I should see it in enough time to not be apart of it or I cause it and actually feel bad.  I try to be mindful of who I am around and if they are faster try and find a spot to "give" them the position. 

[grjkie 727]

I respectfully disagree with Arruda and you Ally, the waiting I believe might have been set in place because of a/a few specific issues. It *may* have surfaced during a time people just wiped others out frequently without even saying anything, that sucks and because of that I don't completely disagree with that policy. It's not perfect, IMO it does not change the outcome, that most likely the race will be over for them both... 

We do have a great group of people around and these issues for me personally are not an issue, was this any other crew and it would have been disbanded a long time ago seeing we all have differences in perspective and all that. Not easy keeping a group like this together and the admins, mods, policy makers etc have done a great job trying to make the game enjoyable to all, we need rules on things that *may* cause conflicts. MHO

[Crawford1872 2,587]

38 minutes ago, grjkie said:

I respectfully disagree with Arruda and you Ally, the waiting I believe might have been set in place because of a/a few specific issues. It *may* have surfaced during a time people just wiped others out frequently without even saying anything, that sucks and because of that I don't completely disagree with that policy. It's not perfect, IMO it does not change the outcome, that most likely the race will be over for them both... 

We do have a great group of people around and these issues for me personally are not an issue, was this any other crew and it would have been disbanded a long time ago seeing we all have differences in perspective and all that. Not easy keeping a group like this together and the admins, mods, policy makers etc have done a great job trying to make the game enjoyable to all, we need rules on things that *may* cause conflicts. MHO

The waiting I mean is bad is what happens sometimes due to the realisation you've had a crash and people just stop immediately which causes a bigger crash haha, I agree with the policy just think we can be clear about how to follow it  

[zmurko 7,622]

I have one question/complaint for the hosts. What's with the slipstream being used so often lately in the race settings?

I've been noticing this lately and it finally genuinely pissed me off last night as it completely ruined a race for me. On a track I enjoy immensely, against a player its a joy to race against, but it was still just pure frustration for me, as I couldnt really enjoy any of that, but mostly had to fight the effects of stupid mechanics not to crash.

I believe we agree we have players with different skill levels, so contact racing can sometimes be a bit of a mess, but you're only making it worse by turning slipstream on, as even really good drivers cannot always control the effects of the slipstream before and around the turns. Not to mention it makes any lag issues we usually experience even bigger. Slipstream just doesn't allow any close racing on tracks where braking is neccesary.

It should only be used on big ovals or long highway races, possibly on IRL track recreations with long boring straights and no slow corners.

Please, pretty please, I beg you to stop using slipstream. Use catchup instead if you want to make the racing experience better for the slower drivers.

Thank you!