USWNT Equal Pay ... Yay or Nay ?

[Con 5,719]

The four time World Cup Champion, US Women's National Soccer team filed an equal pay in a gender discrimination lawsuit and this week US Soccer lawyers explained why US Soccer feels the US Women's team deserves less wages and should not have equal pay...This is what US Soccer lawyers said:

“MNT players routinely play matches (important World Cup qualifiers, in particular) throughout Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean. The WNT does not,” the USSF said. “Opposing fan hostility encountered in these MNT road environments, especially in Mexico and Central America, is unmatched by anything the WNT must face while trying to qualify for an important tournament. Even the hostility of fans at home crowds for the MNT in some friendlies can be unlike anything the WNT faces. This is all evidence of substantially different jobs under the EPA.”

Basically implying that verbal abuse suffered by the men is one of the reasons the men get paid more. Of course that is bullsh*t in my opinion. But in case this is the first time you are hearing about this, you can read below and see how we got to where we are today. [If you are familiar with the lawsuit, then skip all the reading and just share why you agree or disagree....or even if you don't care cause you don't like soccer and your daughter will never play professional soccer, respectfully share your thoughts.] 

 

From ESPN:

USWNT lawsuit versus US Soccer explained: Defining the pay gaps, what's at stake for both sides

The United States women's national soccer team's challenge for equal pay is ongoing off the field as the team prepares for the 2020 Tokyo Olympics on the pitch in less than five months.

Since filing a gender-discrimination lawsuit against the U.S. Soccer Federation on March 8, 2019, the USWNT has gone on to win a second straight World Cup and garner support from celebrities, politicians and athletes.

Could the team's efforts be a blueprint for other women's sports leagues? We break down everything you need to know about the lawsuit ahead of May 5, the pending date for when the case could go to trial in Los Angeles.

What is the USWNT challenging in its pay discrepancy suit?

The 28 players who are part of the suit allege that the USSF engages in "institutionalized gender discrimination" toward the team. The discrimination "has caused, contributed to, and perpetuated gender-based pay disparities" against the players in "nearly every aspect of their employment," the lawsuit reads. The lawsuit was filed in U.S. District Court for the Central District of California under the Equal Pay Act and Title VII of the Civil Rights Act.

Since then, it has been a verbal back-and-forth between the federation and legal representatives for the team.

In July 2019, USSF president Carlos Cordeiro released an open letter, citing what he described as extensive analysis of 10 years of financial data. He said the data showed that from 2010 to 2018, the women's players were paid $34.1 million in salary and game bonuses by U.S. Soccer, a comparative to $26.4 million given to the men during the same time period. The men's and women's teams operate with separate collective bargaining agreements and pay structures.

Representatives for the USWNT said the claim by USSF was "utterly false."

In November 2019, federal judge R. Gary Klausner of U.S. District Court for the Central District of California granted the USWNT's motion to give its lawsuit class certification. The early win for the women meant the lawsuit could include players who appeared for the national team dating back to Feb. 4, 2015. U.S. Soccer had opposed the motion for certification.

The rhetoric from both sides has ramped up in recent weeks, as the trial is slated to start on May 5, less than three months before the 2020 Olympics in Tokyo. In February, the two sides filed very different motions in district court. Lawyers for the USWNT filed for partial summary judgment, seeking back pay of at least $66.7 million, in addition to punitive damages. USSF asked the court to dismiss the lawsuit "based on the actual facts in the record and the governing law."

-- Kelly Cohen

Where does the U.S. men's team stand on this?

Last month, the U.S. men's team issued a statement of support, saying that the USSF "has been working very hard to sell a false narrative to the public, and even to members of Congress."

Last week, USWNT star winger Megan Rapinoe thanked the men's team for its support and said she is "very confident of a positive outcome," even if it won't be soon. -- Cohen

There are commonly asked questions around pay structures for the men's and women's teams. Here is what we know:

Do all USWNT and USMNT players get paid upon call-up?

• In a word, no, but like most things with the equal pay dispute, it's complicated. Players on the U.S. men's and women's national teams are represented by separate unions, and thus, the structure of their respective CBAs is different. The men have been operating under the terms of an expired CBA since Jan. 1, 2019. The current deal for the women expires at the end of 2021.

• The women operate under what could best be described as a hybrid system. Seventeen players (dropping to 16 in 2021) are signed to full-time contracts with the USSF. Those signed players get paid whether or not they get called up for a game or training camp, even if they're injured. These players also receive benefits such as parental leave. The remaining women's players are called "Non-Contract Players," and they get paid only when they are called up to the team.

• The players on the men's team operate on a pay-for-play basis. They get paid only when they are called on to the team. If they get injured with their club teams and miss a national team game, they do not get paid.

How much is the USWNT paid? And how are players paid: per game, monthly, annually?

• For the women, there are various revenue streams. Contracted players have a base pay of $100,000 per year. There are also at least 22 players who are allocated to National Women's Soccer League teams. Tier 1 players -- of which there must be at least 11 - make an additional $67,500 per year, while the Tier 2 players make $62,500 per year. These players receive annual salary bumps of $2,500. The USSF, namely the USWNT manager, decides which players will receive Tier 1 or Tier 2 status. The women also have a variety of incentive-based bonuses written into their CBA to cover items such as win bonuses in friendlies, qualifying for the World Cup, winning the World Cup, and so on.

• Pay for Non-Contract USWNT Players is governed by seniority. A player making her eighth or more WNT camp appearance receives $4,000 per call-up. A player called in making less than her eighth appearance receives $3,500 per call-up. These players also participate in the various win bonuses.

• The men are paid in similar fashion to Non-Contract USWNT players, though their appearance fees and bonuses in most cases are considerably higher. For example, making a World Cup team will net a men's player $68,750. A women's player will make $37,500 for making the World Cup squad. A win by the USMNT against a team outside the top 25 in the FIFA rankings will result in each player getting a bonus of $9,375, and a loss will result in a payment of $5,000. For the women, a win against a team ranked outside the top eight gives each player $5,250, and they get nothing for a loss.

• How does this shake out in terms of total pay? It varies from year to year, based on each team's respective World Cup cycle. The most recent filing for 2018 saw only USWNT players among the federation's top-paid employees. But keep in mind that 2018 was a year in which the men were expected to play in the World Cup but didn't because they failed to qualify for the first time since 1986. Had the team made the tournament, the pay of several men's players would likely have far exceeded that of their female counterparts.

How is money from television deals and attendance factored in?

• Again, the respective CBAs handle these situations differently. For men's games organized by the USSF, the union gets a cut ($1.50) of every ticket sold. The total is put in a pool and distributed among the players. There is no mention in the men's CBA about television viewership.

• The women's CBA states that the union receives $1.50 per paid ticket plus 7.5% of every ticket sold above 17,000. The union will also receive a bonus if a game is sold out. The women's union receives a "viewership bonus" if the average viewership on a particular channel for USWNT games grows by at least 10% from the previous year. There is language in the CBA that says if the new men's deal exceeds these numbers, the women will automatically have the same terms applied.

-- Jeff Carlisle

How did the USWNT and USSF get to this point?

Suffice it to say, the current dispute has deep roots -- in both a legal aspect, and a philosophical one.

Tension between members of the women's national team and the federation is nothing new. Theirs has been both a wildly successful partnership and an uneasy relationship almost from the outset. What might soon be on display in a courtroom is merely the latest incarnation.

That partnership saw U.S. Soccer take on financial risk in staging the 1999 World Cup on a grand scale across the United States, correctly believing the women's game and the U.S. team were up to the challenge, contrary to FIFA ambivalence. Yet this is also an uneasy relationship. Three years before that seminal tournament, a number of players protested when the federation initially offered unequal bonus structures for men and women participating in the 1996 Olympics.

As the first collective bargaining agreement negotiated by the then-new players union neared its end in 2004, USWNTPA counsel John Langel sent a letter to the U.S. Olympic Committee seeking compensation for what was described in great detail as U.S. Soccer's continued lack of commitment to the women's team. Among the litany of complaints: U.S. Soccer's decision to effectively put the national team on mothballs in 2005, scheduling only a handful of friendlies and little dedicated training time.

Langel's 2004 letter was among the documents recently submitted by attorneys for the players in the current suit in support of a motion for summary judgment in their favor.

While Megan Rapinoe praised the federation's backing on the eve of last year's Women's World Cup final, saying, "compared to every other federation in the world, I don't think it's close," she remains a plaintiff in the suit against U.S. Soccer. Her praise was included in a recent filing by the federation, albeit without any emphasis on the part where she said she would continue to nudge the federation toward the progress that still needs to be made.

How we got to the current moment is legally straightforward. After the USWNT won the 2015 World Cup -- with their reach as great as it had ever been, after packing stadiums in Canada and breaking television viewership records at home -- players and their union contended that there was no CBA in place. That would have allowed players the bargaining chip of striking in advance of the 2016 Rio Olympics, empowering them in negotiations for a new CBA. U.S. Soccer contended at the time that a four-year Memorandum of Understanding signed in 2013 in lieu of a new CBA bound players to the "no strike, no lockout" clause already in effect.

The federation sued the USWNTPA in February 2016, seeking a ruling on whether the existing agreement constituted a CBA. A federal court ruled in the federation's favor in June of that year. But by that time, Carli Lloyd, Alex Morgan, Rapinoe, Becky Sauerbrunn and Hope Solo had already filed a complaint with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission alleging wage discrimination.

The two sides appeared to find temporary peace with the new CBA signed in 2017. But when the five players received a right-to-sue letter from the EEOC early in 2019, with their original complaint neither resolved nor affected by the new CBA, 28 members of the national team player pool filed suit.

-- Graham Hays

And that philosophical divide?

It's been on display for decades. One side states women's soccer is fundamentally distinct from men's soccer.

This was set out in typically stark legal terms in part of U.S. Soccer's recent motion for summary judgment. "Plaintiffs and the MNT players do not perform equal work requiring equal skill, effort and responsibility under similar working conditions," the motion stated, using the criteria and language set out in the Equal Pay Act under which (in part) the players brought their suit.

Players have gradually earned increasing support from a federation that, as Rapinoe said, is more invested in the women's game than any other federation in the world. Few dispute that. The present reality is a far cry from the likes of the $10 per diems of early years.

The divide is that U.S. Soccer contends the past is the appropriate comparison point: Things are better for members of the women's team now than they were in the past, and they will continue to work with players to make them better still in the future. Full stop.

"Plaintiffs are not entitled to summary judgment on their [Equal Pay Act] claims because a reasonable juror could conclude that the job of MNT player requires materially different skill and more responsibility than Plaintiffs' job does, while also taking place under materially different working conditions," attorneys for U.S. Soccer said in a Monday filing. "Simply put, they are materially different jobs that cannot be compared under the EPA."

The other side believes that is the root of the damage still being done.

"Hopefully, this is going to create a domino effect with not only other federations around the world in soccer but potentially other sports leagues," Rapinoe told ESPN last year. "I think women can take it into any realm where there are men and women being paid. Maybe this can be a case people cite in their own cases against employers or whatever it may be to strengthen their case. So hopefully this has a lasting effect."

-- Hays

What is the precedent in a case such as this?

The U.S. women's national soccer team isn't the only one to fight with its federation for equality. In September, just two months after becoming the first Caribbean nation to qualify for the World Cup, Jamaica's women's soccer team -- the Reggae Girlz -- launched a "No Pay, No Play" campaign on social media and said it would not train or compete until its federation paid the players money they were owed. The team was also frustrated about its treatment, including less-than-ideal travel itineraries.

The Reggae Girlz have been fighting for equality since 2010, when the Jamaican Football Federation cut their funding. Bob Marley's daughter, Cedella, led fundraising efforts when the team disbanded in 2014.

By the end of September 2019, the JFF said it finally paid the players, and the boycott did not happen. However, coach Hue Menzies stepped down in December due in part to his own pay dispute and said he was spending money out of pocket to support the team in the lead-up to the Women's World Cup.

In November 2019, Australia's women's soccer team reached a landmark, four-year deal with Football Federation Australia that ensured the Matildas would be paid as much as their male counterparts. Previously, the men earned a greater share of revenues generated by the team and were paid more. The new deal also guaranteed equitable conditions for the Matildas, including business-class travel for international tournaments (something the men already had) and the same coaching and operational support.

In the United States, the women's soccer team is often compared to its counterparts in hockey, who fought with their federation ahead of the 2017 IIHF World Championships. The American women threatened to boycott the tournament, citing stalled negotiations with USA Hockey over "fair wages and equitable support."

The players and USA Hockey ended up agreeing to a landmark, four-year agreement just before the tournament, which ended the holdout and the chance that USA Hockey would put out a replacement squad for the tournament. The team's annual compensation improved to roughly $70,000 per player, plus performance bonuses that could push incomes over six figures if the team wins the Olympics or world championships. Benefits such as maternity leave -- something never previously offered to the women -- were included in the new deal. USA Hockey also agreed to other player asks, such as establishing a committee to look into how the federation could improve its marketing, scheduling, public relations efforts and promotion of the women's game, plus fundraising and other efforts for girls' developmental teams.

As far as legal precedent, one case cited by the USSF's lawyers in their motion for summary judgment to dismiss the suit is "Stanley v. University of Southern California." In 1993, Marianne Stanley was the school's head women's basketball coach, and she sued the university under the Equal Protection Act and Title VII because she was paid less than her counterpart on the men's team, George Raveling. She lost in both the District Court and the Ninth Circuit for the Court of Appeals. The arguments that the USSF is making echo the appellate court's decision, namely that Raveling was under "greater pressure" from USC to promote his team and win because the men's team generated greater attendance and "substantially more revenue" than the women's team.

Without question, the argument is, as UCLA law professor Steven A. Bank said recently, "an unqualified loser in the court of public opinion." Societal attitudes toward women's sports have evolved since that decision. Yet the case history is there, and the USSF has long been arguing that the men's team generates more revenue and better television ratings than the women's team.

According to data provided by the USSF, the men have outdrawn the women every year in attendance from 2006 to 2018. Research by ESPN indicated that changed in 2019, both for overall average (28,002 for the women versus 21,776 for the men) and for games in the U.S. (25,122 versus 23,305). In terms of television ratings, although the women outdrew the men during World Cup years of 2011 and 2015, the men had better ratings in every other year between 2008 and 2018.

The USSF didn't provide data for 2019, a year in which the American women won their fourth World Cup, but according to FIFA, the 2019 tournament was the most-watched tournament in its history, with more than one billion people tuning in across the globe. The final between the USWNT and the Netherlands was the most watched Women's World Cup match ever, with an average live audience of 82.18 million -- up by 56% on the 2015 final audience of 52.56 million. The men's national team did not qualify for the 2018 World Cup held in Russia.

Since items such as media rights and sponsorship are bundled to include both teams, placing exact revenue numbers on each team isn't as easy as it seems, yet the USSF is determined to make that argument, even if the optics are poor.

-- Kaplan and Carlisle

What are USWNT players earning in the NWSL?

The NWSL made big improvements to its salary and compensation packages ahead of the 2020 season. The minimum salary is now $20,000 (up from $16,538 in 2019), and the maximum salary is $50,000 (up from $46,200). The overall salary cap is $650,000, a 19.33% increase from $421,500 in 2019.

The NWSL removed limits on a number of guaranteed contracts and introduced salary allocation, which allows each team to purchase up to $300,000 in allocation money from the league to pay players more than the maximum salary and exceed the salary cap.

This still leaves more to be desired. Sydney Leroux made headlines last month when she told Forbes that she paid more in childcare in 2019 than she made in salary from the Orlando Pride. "If you're not on the national team, you're sitting in the back seat," Leroux said. "I think we need to make it important that it touches everybody. What we're doing is only affecting certain people, and I think that that's not good enough because we're losing out on really good athletes because you can't survive on an NWSL salary. People have different jobs. People's parents are helping them, and that's not OK. This isn't a hobby. This is our livelihood."

Consider that Leroux's husband, Dom Dwyer, earned $1.32 million in base salary from Orlando City SC last year. In 2019, base salaries in MLS ranged from $56,244.60 to $7.2 million for the highest-paid player (Zlatan Ibrahimovic).

-- Kaplan

Will this actually make it to the courtroom?

The question is always a good -- though unanswerable -- one in complicated cases. All indications are that it is headed to trial, and lawyers on both sides, even if they are in settlement talks, will be planning on a parallel path to go to trial. But a settlement is always possible, especially in cases in which personal grievances and business operations, practices have the potential to be aired publicly.

In the absence of what the women consider to be a fair offer -- and both sides appear far apart on what that consists of -- this seems to be headed to trial. There is a little less than two months to go until a trial would start, however. If players believe the USSF will eventually come to them with improved terms, it could increase the chances of a potential settlement. The USSF has moved in the players' direction with its offer of equal appearance bonuses as the men for games the USSF controls, but that is more an issue for collective bargaining, and the union isn't a party to the suit. Regardless, the two sides first have to agree to sit at the bargaining table, and that doesn't appear to be happening any time soon.

-- Carlisle

--------------------------------------------------------------

So what do you think? 

Do you think the US Women's Soccer team should be making more or equal to than the US men's team?  What would your ruling be if this were to make it in front of a judge?

Edited March 11, 2020 by Con

[Spinnaker1981 974]

I honestly think the wages should be directly linked to the amount of money the industry as a whole makes. That being said, I highly doubt that women soccer moves even close to the same amount of money has men’s soccer, specially worldwide. And the US is not alone in the world. But the world is up side down nowadays, so maybe its me who is wrong... 

[CatManDoza 3,474]

Not here for the discussion, but the BBC don't help too much with the english womens game with headlines like this..... 

[Jjss924 576]

I heard about that a while back, and they said the women's team makes more than the men's team by percentage. They get paid less because people care less about women's sports. The US women's team is much better than the men's, but are less marketable.

[LimeGreenLegend 4,275]

I don't think any sportsperson or athlete should get paid more than 100 grand a year, but that's a different discussion.  

When it comes to football/soccer and money, it's all about the tv rights.  The top four leagues (England, France, Germany and Spain) all have tv deals worth over a billion pounds each.  I highly doubt that much of that money is going towards each countries women's leagues, so the growth is much slower.  If they had the same deals and the same coverage then we'd get a good picture of who "deserves" what, but that will never happen.

 

[LimeGreenLegend 4,275]

3 minutes ago, Jjss924 said:

They get paid less because people care less about women's sports.

Another thing that's directly linked to tv coverage.  When the Women's World Cup was on prime time tv people watched and talked about it.  Now it's gone and no one cares.  TV is king.

[The_Lady_A 1,280]

Lol at the idea female athletes face less hostility. 

In terms of equal wages, I can't say I am a fan of any individual earning tens of millions for anything. Ain't nobody needs that much money. But yeah female athletes should definitely earn enough to make the most of their athletic careers and live comfortably afterwards (unless, you know, they blow it on fast cars and hookers). 

I've had a quick browse (so scientific) and it does seem that if female soccer as a business is competetive with male soccer anywhere, it is in the US. That means pretty much everything else I want to say applies the least to the United States. I mean from an outside perspective you guys love throwing money at anything sports related, so that makes a kind of sense.

@Spinnaker1981 If women's soccer in Europe brings in even a tenth of what male soccer does I would be surprised. Although male soccer didn't magically get to be such a big money business, it took decades of money being pumped in from just about every commercial interest under the sun. 

Being a footballer isn't exactly the most glamorous or even full time job for the vast majority of female athletes, so cultivating future players of greater quality is also much more difficult. I've always wondered if, for say 10-20 years female sports recieved the same level of training, recruitment and investment that male sports do, the performance differences between the two would close much.

[Spinnaker1981 974]

1 minute ago, The_Lady_A said:

(...)  I've always wondered if, for say 10-20 years female sports recieved the same level of training, recruitment and investment that male sports do, the performance differences between the two would close much.

The difference would be very little indeed, I have no doubt. And I have no doubt that it would have viewers. But it is very hard to change cultural establishments and I don´t see those changing in the near future.

Also, why segregate? Why womens seperated from the men? Why wouldn´t have any kind of problem with having half my team with female players! If they are good enough, then they are good enough! As long as there is no rules that force the teams to buy female players or something like that, I don´t see why there can´t be only one sport!

We have had female race drivers, female f1 drivers, female Rally drivers, Female truck drivers in Dakar and Africa Eco Race, why not female football/Basketball/Handball/Hockey/Ice-Hockey/etc... players in the same league? I don´t get it!

 

[LimeGreenLegend 4,275]

6 minutes ago, Spinnaker1981 said:

We have had female race drivers, female f1 drivers, female Rally drivers, Female truck drivers in Dakar and Africa Eco Race, why not female football/Basketball/Handball/Hockey/Ice-Hockey/etc... players in the same league? I don´t get it!

There's a difference between motorsports and physical contact sports.  

[Spinnaker1981 974]

Just now, LimeGreenLegend said:

There's a difference between motorsports and physical contact sports.  

What is that difference? What is the fear here? Are motorsports physically less demanding?

Edited March 11, 2020 by Spinnaker1981

[LimeGreenLegend 4,275]

1 minute ago, Spinnaker1981 said:

What is that difference? What is the fear here? Are motorsports physically less demanding?

The difference is obvious.  Let's imagine that for the entire history of the modern Olympic games male and female athletes competed together.  That would mean that there would be no female gold medallist for shot-put, javelin, 100m sprint, long jump, high jump...etc etc.  In the entire history of the games there have only been a tiny number of occasions where the female gold medallist has out-performed the male gold medallist for the same event in the same year.

[Spinnaker1981 974]

1 minute ago, LimeGreenLegend said:

The difference is obvious.  Let's imagine that for the entire history of the modern Olympic games male and female athletes competed together.  That would mean that there would be no female gold medallist for shot-put, javelin, 100m sprint, long jump, high jump...etc etc.  In the entire history of the games there have only been a tiny number of occasions where the female gold medallist has out-performed the male gold medallist for the same event in the same year.

 

That is as fair of a comparison as mine with the motorsports. But wouldn´t there be female football players that would be good enough to perform in the best leagues/teams in the world?

Sure, it would probably bring prices down for everyone (double the offer lowers the demand), but that would be fairer than segregating the championships like is done today. At least from my POV...

[The_Lady_A 1,280]

18 minutes ago, Spinnaker1981 said:

The difference would be very little indeed, I have no doubt. And I have no doubt that it would have viewers. But it is very hard to change cultural establishments and I don´t see those changing in the near future.

Also, why segregate? Why womens seperated from the men? Why wouldn´t have any kind of problem with having half my team with female players! If they are good enough, then they are good enough! As long as there is no rules that force the teams to buy female players or something like that, I don´t see why there can´t be only one sport!

We have had female race drivers, female f1 drivers, female Rally drivers, Female truck drivers in Dakar and Africa Eco Race, why not female football/Basketball/Handball/Hockey/Ice-Hockey/etc... players in the same league? I don´t get it!

 

I don't disagree in principle Spinn, not at all. Unfortunately because of both the aforementioned investment/skill gap and the traditional segregation, taking steps to deconstruct the current regime and replace it with something more balanced is probably going to be harder to do in field team sports than in any other sector plagued by inequality. Sports which are more tool focused such as driving, darts, shooting etc tend to negate the twin benefits male athletes enjoy in broadly more raw physical mass and targeted athletic development from basically the moment they can walk.

Sadly I would say that broadly guys are raised to be entitled to succeed in sports, while gals are dissuaded at every other point. E-Sports are the shining example of how, even when there's no physical reason for a difference, the environment can create one.

[Con 5,719]

1 minute ago, Spinnaker1981 said:

The difference would be very little indeed, I have no doubt. And I have no doubt that it would have viewers. But it is very hard to change cultural establishments and I don´t see those changing in the near future.

Also, why segregate? Why womens seperated from the men? Why wouldn´t have any kind of problem with having half my team with female players! If they are good enough, then they are good enough! As long as there is no rules that force the teams to buy female players or something like that, I don´t see why there can´t be only one sport!

We have had female race drivers, female f1 drivers, female Rally drivers, Female truck drivers in Dakar and Africa Eco Race, why not female football/Basketball/Handball/Hockey/Ice-Hockey/etc... players in the same league? I don´t get it!

 

This thread wouldnt exist if we were talking about the WNBA asking for equal pay.  That is the thing that is complex about the soccer players. They have won what most would call the ultimate championship, a true WORLD Championship.  I bet if the USA Men's soccer team had four WC championships....the players would be NFL and NBA-filthy rich Gods here in America. 

[Banketelli 3,655]

10 minutes ago, Spinnaker1981 said:

That is as fair of a comparison as mine with the motorsports. But wouldn´t there be female football players that would be good enough to perform in the best leagues/teams in the world?

Sure, it would probably bring prices down for everyone (double the offer lowers the demand), but that would be fairer than segregating the championships like is done today. At least from my POV...

I'm sure that there are some women that are so incredibly gifted, both technically and physically that they could make the jump. But they would go from playing for the best clubs in the world to some lower tier teams. Like Lime said, the psychical difference between the genders is just too big. And I don't see why women would even want to compete with men in sports like football, basketball, etc. It would be much, much more psychically demanding, only a few would be able to play at a somewhat decent level and the rest would be forgotten. The professional part of football would basically just be men's football.

No doubt that there's a lot of room for improvement in many (most) sports when comparing the commitment and money put into the talent work of boys and girls. But it can only take it so far. There's a reason why a dude ranked outside the top 200 could smash the Williams sisters back-to-back, why the U.S. National Women's Team got beaten 5-2 by a under-15 boys team and why some women's sports are being ruined by transgenders.

Granted, I know close to sh*t about motorsport but as I see it, the physical aspect there is more about endurance where women is much more equal to men. In some cases better.

[Spinnaker1981 974]

3 minutes ago, Banketelli said:

I'm sure that there are some women that are so incredibly gifted, both technically and physically that they could make the jump. But they would go from playing for the best clubs in the world to some lower tier teams. Like Lime said, the psychical difference between the genders is just too big. And I don't see why women would even want to compete with men in sports like football, basketball, etc. It would be much, much more psychically demanding, only a few would be able to play at a somewhat decent level and the rest would be forgotten. The professional part of football would basically just be men's football.

No doubt that there's a lot of room for improvement in many (most) sports when comparing the commitment and money put into the talent work of boys and girls. But it can only take it so far. There's a reason why a dude ranked outside the top 200 could smash the Williams sisters back-to-back, why the U.S. National Women's Team got beaten 5-2 by a under-15 boys team and why some women's sports are being ruined by transgenders.

Granted, I know close to sh*t about motorsport but as I see it, the physical aspect there is more about endurance where women is much more equal to men. In some cases better.

Give the same training and the same demands and women will be close to the same level of stamina and technique than man, at least in football.

Besides, what pays better? a bench on Aston Villa´s main team or a first team player in Man Utd´s Feminine team?

[JuniorChubb 3,360]

Just something to add that hasn’t been mentioned so far and that is the ‘age’ of the sport.

Footballers have not always been overpaid and pampered playboys. There was a time when the were poor despite filling stadiums with over 100,000 fans. Most sports start off at amateur level, then slowly move into professionalism and as popularity rises so does the winnings/earnings.

As far as exposure and popularity goes, aren’t professional women’s leagues in their infancy? I know women have played football as far back as men have, but the recent and consistent professional set up is still a wee bairn.

I don’t really know enough about the economics of ‘soccer’ to say if they should be paid more or less, but I think the age of the sport might be playing a part here, the first fully professional women’s league was set up in 2000. Can you can expect a league in its infancy to compare to a league that was established in 1921?

I don’t really feel strongly one way or the other, these things are usually governed by economics rather than ‘fairness’. I just thought it was an imprtnat part of the discussion that had not been mentioned.

 

[JuniorChubb 3,360]

26 minutes ago, Spinnaker1981 said:

Give the same training and the same demands and women will be close to the same level of stamina and technique than man, at least in football.

Sorry but this is just not true, physical sport is separated for a reason.

Edit: Technique, yes. Nearly every other physical aspect, no.

[Con 5,719]

This just in...

 https://www.marketscreener.com/THE-COCA-COLA-COMPANY-4819/news/Coca-Cola-U-S-Soccer-Federation-Says-Male-Players-Carry-More-Responsibility-Backlash-Follows-30144817/

[Banketelli 3,655]

17 minutes ago, Spinnaker1981 said:

Give the same training and the same demands and women will be close to the same level of stamina and technique than man, at least in football.

Besides, what pays better? a bench on Aston Villa´s main team or a first team player in Man Utd´s Feminine team?

Stamina and technique is one thing, strength, speed and power is another.

That's true. The financial aspect is a good reason but that would be the case of the few ruining it for the many. And I honestly doubt a woman could make it to that level.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Banketelli

[Banketelli 3,655]

On topic: The arguments from the USSF are ridiculous. It should be based on earnings. If the women earn you more, pay them more. Though, I've always thought that no one should be paid to play for their country. The honour should be reward enough. Let the money from the national associations go to the youth and amateur clubs.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Banketelli

[Spinnaker1981 974]

14 minutes ago, Banketelli said:

And I honestly doubt a woman could make it to that level.

Really? You want examples of players that don´t have strong physical attributes playing in major teams? You think a woman can´t get to the level of physical strength or speed of some players in top teams? I don´t buy that, sorry but I don´t.  And you can see the world records (f.e. in speed) are not really that far behind (1s 100m, 2s in the 200m, 4s in the 400m).

There is a physical aspect to take into account, for sure, but it is not that immense gap you seem to consider.

Furthermore, there are some aspects you seem to not take into account: Agility/flexibility, ability to withstand pain. In all those aspects the woman´s body is better suited than the men´s body.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Spinnaker1981

[Spinnaker1981 974]

9 minutes ago, Banketelli said:

On topic: The arguments from the USSF are ridiculous. It should be based on earnings. If the women earn you more, pay them more. Though, I've always thought that no one should be paid to play for their country. The honour should be reward enough. Let the money from the national associations go to the youth and amateur clubs.

That I agree with you 100%

[The_Lady_A 1,280]

That is a pretty good point Spinn, if they're only looking for the physical attributes that men excell at then of course women won't measure up.

This again runs straight into the legacy issues with these sports - they were made by men for men. And since our societies can't even seem to remember that you should include women in clinical studies before claiming your results can apply to everyone, I am inclined to believe that there probably is more physical potential to unlock in women that has already been unlocked in men. 

[JuniorChubb 3,360]

1 minute ago, The_Lady_A said:

This again runs straight into the legacy issues with these sports - they were made by men for men.

It is hard to build an argument against this... it does stray a little into the reparations argument though, a bit of a hot pot.