Lag Compensation & Lag

[ScottyB 2,086]

After experiencing varying degrees of lag, both for and against me, and with it becoming more prevalent lately, I've decided to look into it.

Some of you who have played a lot of online games would be aware of this but it's new to me and i would like to learn more about it.

From what I have read, and to the best of my limited knowledge on the subject, compensation lag is a feature that allows an online game to have people with different Internet speeds to play with each other and see the same thing.

As with any computer coding, there are different ways to reach the intended result and some are better than others but none are perfect. A quick Google of the subject will show that one of the recent CoD games was virtually un playable due to Lag comp. Being shot behind cover , without seeing the other player or getting clear headhsots that don't register are problems due to lag and or lag comp.

If there was no lag comp, people with a higher ping would have an advantage, which used to be the case to the point that people would intentionally increase their ping to get an advantage. You are meant to be kicked from the session if your ping drops to a set point or your connection is too slow but as I'm sure many have noticed, you can lag pretty bad before anything happens.

Everything you see has already happened. Could be a millisecond to a few seconds behind depending on your ping and bandwidth speed. When you push the button to shoot, the game sends the information to the server and then matchs it up with the time stamp of where the other player was to register it as a hit or miss.

Lag and lag comp are different, but I don't exactly know the difference.

What I don't understand, and would like to know is why there is such bad lag sometimes, eg, why am I seeing stuff half a second later then you?

I think until you get to a certain level and know what should be happening, this lag isn't such a big deal. Once you get more competitive and can play faster, you notice it a lot. Below are a few examples of what happened yesterday against G37 in a DM. I don't mind losing fairly, but when lag is involved there is nothing more infuriating.. This is a really extreme example of it and I asked what did he see ( especially the one where I died mid roll, and he said I was running straight at him.

I would like to learn more about how this all works and any theories you have on it.

Why doesn't what we see match up sometimes?

Who is at fault?

Will a high or low ping or bad connection give you an advantage/disadvantage?

Feel free to post some videos of your lag experiences to vent some of that anger too

Thanks in advance! Sorry for all the reading

[no_snacks 3,345]

Lmao at the last video.  

 

That whole session yesterday was a real bad experience for me Scotty, but the rooftop TDM in your videos was a living hell.  

G37 was obviously seeing things as they were, but you & I were seeing things a second or so too late.

You guys always dominate me in DM's, but the score is normally something like 7-3 or 11-5.  In that TDM, G owned me 12-0.

I couldn't lock on to any targets & sometimes G would just appear from nowhere like a ninja & pistol whip me.

We were having a bit of a laugh about it at the time, but it's very frustrating when you know from your own POV you're doing the right things at the right time, but you still keep getting killed.

 

The 1st TDM we played at the movie studio was also bad for me.  

If you remember, I asked you over the mic where I was standing when you killed me, and you said I was just standing in the open.

I was actually taking cover behind the hot-dog van & had even moved back from the corner to make sure you couldn't get me.  Then you simply shot my face off.  

 

Even the In Harmony off-road race was laggy for me.  You guys all took off from the grid together, but my countdown timer was still showing #2.

 

I'm not very tech savvy, so I can only relay what I see & experience.  I can't offer any reasons why these things happen.

One thing I have noticed, the PS3 rarely had these sorts of issues for me.  Maybe 1 out of 10 races would have a laggy start.  On the PS4, I'd say it's more like 8 out of 10.  That's no exaggeration either.

Does the new hardware have something to do with it?  Maybe the lag issues are not always connection/internet related.  Maybe the consoles play a part in the way they process the connection information.  Will the lag issues gradually get better with patches?

I have no idea, but that's just my observation.  

 

EDIT.

Sorry for making you read too.  I have no pretty pictures or videos to post.

Edited February 28, 2015 by no_snacks

[vishesh_91 509]

Don't know much about lag in general but what I've noticed is that it affects me a lot when I'm playing with NA members.Thats why I play mostly with EU.

I know another Aussie member who had the same problems as you.He would get the headshots but they wouldn't register.

 

I recently started playing EA Sports UFC and being an MMA game the punches,kicks etc don't seem to count as there is a lot of lag.Again,I think the majority of people who play this are from NA.I wonder if distance is an important factor.

 

Best we could probably do is get a fast and stable wired connection(don't know how much it will help).

 

Sad thing is a gamer doesn't even get an opportunity to be his best.

[DavidCore89 7,404]

I've never experienced lag like shown in the last video, that's just ridiculous...

 

Low ping is what causes this, WiFi will drastically affect ping as well, the encryption required through a WiFi connection means those players tend to lag in all game modes, even UK players less than 500 miles from me using WiFi will lag on my screen, so I can't imagine the delay with locations 10,000 miles away.

 

I don't know, I have played GTA with a few Aussies that haven't lagged (Revbouncer).

 

I think a patch for GTA may improve things (hopefully), the game is quite buggy right now, the dodgy race start thing is affecting me as well.

 

 

I recently started playing EA Sports UFC and being an MMA game the punches,kicks etc don't seem to count as there is a lot of lag.Again,I think the majority of people who play this are from NA.I wonder if distance is an important factor.

 

Yeah that game was laggy as hell for me.

 

It doesn't help that most players just max out a few punches and kicks and then just spam those same moves.

Edited February 28, 2015 by DavidCore89

[DavidCore89 7,404]

G kills me mid-roll every single time... So I guess on his screen I'm probably allowing him to kill me.

[ronin 596]

I've noticed that moving from WiFi to wired and changing the TV settings to game mode (thanks Scotty ) do make a difference. I do recall reading stuff on Reddit claiming that it also had to do with the way R* is running things. With GTAO you don't connect to a big server farm managing everything. It is more like a P2P system which apparently has its specific advantages, but also disadvantages such as lag.  I guess with a P2P everyone is pretty much dependent on everyone else's connections and general network/ISP capabilities.

[DavidCore89 7,404]

I've noticed that moving from WiFi to wired and changing the TV settings to game mode (thanks Scotty ) do make a difference. I do recall reading stuff on Reddit claiming that it also had to do with the way R* is running things. With GTAO you don't connect to a big server farm managing everything. It is more like a P2P system which apparently has its specific advantages, but also disadvantages such as lag.  I guess with a P2P everyone is pretty much dependent on everyone else's connections and general network/ISP capabilities.

That's true.

 

F1 used P2P on PS3 and some players were driving in mid-air or were completely invisible for 70 laps  .

[Torrid 653]

As I've been playing more PS4 I'm starting to notice this stuff. My connection is hard wired. I do tend to play with more people from around the world on PS4 though. With the usual groups on PS3 at night almost everyone is in the US, but the PS3 is on WiFi and I haven't noticed too many of these issues.

[zebedee505050 71]

This is a topic that has interested me for a while,i get so frustrated my internet speed is not the best as i live in the valleys of Wales.I think i'm doing head shots but going by what you guys

are saying i'm not.Also getting bad lag in racing,i am not the best player in either of these but it does not help me.

[JustHatched 12,123]

G kills me mid-roll every single time... So I guess on his screen I'm probably allowing him to kill me.

Same here, I always figured he knew where to aim to get me in the roll without using the auto lock, never realized it might be a lag thing.Either way he would still kick my ass.

[Jaggy 2,811]

I've been getting killed mid roll in almost every match no matter who I play against lately.  Kristen killed me a lot that way during the Grapeseed playlist yesterday.  So I'm not sure what I was doing on her screen (rolling or running) when she shot me, but I was rolling on my screen.  It's always on PS4 though.  On PS3, wireless connection, I have no issue and can do a combat roll to avoid being shot.

[G37 3,445]

It's funny you guys mention that I kill you mid roll because I get killed mid roll .. all the time, especially by DC and MLB lol. Knowing that though, that there's a margin for error, it's probably something you could time pretty well - doing something a tad earlier or a tad later than usual to compensate.

 

I can't say I really ever notice Scotty/Snacks/etc ever really "lagging". Their animations are fluid from my perspective. There's the occasional them standing still when I know they really shouldn't be but I've only ever seen them bounce around sporadically on the screen maybe once.

 

I think there's always going to be a discrepancy when playing, just the nature of the game. I feel like the PS4 version of GTA was a rush job and could be far more optimal if they spent more time on it. I may not understand much about coding but as far as I can tell it shouldn't behave like an actual disease. Maybe code does mutate over time as things are added/taken away/not tested properly) but I think it's interesting some of the late problems PS3 had are suddenly creeping up on PS4 (sideways traffic/not being able to suddenly get into PLs that have started/etc).

 

I imagine when you link more people over more distances it becomes a problem for some. Scotty has posted some interesting videos from HIS perspective but for example on mine he's smooth as ever (unlike for example when you legitimately notice players bouncing all over the screen in jets or in cars).

 

I'm still a novice when it comes to online experiences but I've played with people who definitely ween/throttle their connection so it's advantageous to them and not you (they're lagging all over your screen and they kill you no problem for them).

Edited February 28, 2015 by G37

[Onrefne 367]

G kills me mid-roll every single time... So I guess on his screen I'm probably allowing him to kill me.

-omg this infuriates me so much lol, and its always the same 3 ppl that get me with this, G, LN, and Rabbit.

-i swear LN's auto target locked straight to my head, i don't even have time to lift my gun b4 i'm dead when i encounter him

-and idk if this is a lag issue or just a physical aiming issue but there are times i sneak up on someone who has their camera facing the other way, i will unlock a whole clip at their head but i just can't seem to hit it. it's gotta be lag bc i can score full headshot kills in gang attacks no prob.

-the speed at which you snap to someones head can also be affected by the aim sensitivity, i have tried to mess around with this setting but in all i just keep it 1-2 ticks from low, as the more i raise it the more my reticule moves around in a "spray and pray" formation more than actual aiming, but this means i cant look around fast while hugging a wall, or follow ppl well if they run

[wraignbow 719]

I've been getting killed mid roll in almost every match no matter who I play against lately.  Kristen killed me a lot that way during the Grapeseed playlist yesterday.  So I'm not sure what I was doing on her screen (rolling or running) when she shot me, but I was rolling on my screen.  It's always on PS4 though.  On PS3, wireless connection, I have no issue and can do a combat roll to avoid being shot.

Yes, whenever I'd shoot you, from my perspective you were just standing there. I didn't see you roll at all.

G gets me alot mid-roll, but he is also faster and more accurate than me. Same with DC. When I notice the lag again, I'll be sure to save the video and post it.

[Jaggy 2,811]

So weird.  It's like combat roll is pointless on PS4 right now.  I don't mind that I get shot while rolling.  I thought it was just people who knew exactly how to shoot someone as they were rolling.

[ScottyB 2,086]

So I came across a really interesting article that explains it. Its quiet long but interesting if you want to know more.  http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-lag-effect-psn-xbox-live-analysis

 

Most things i have read are based on PC games, not consoles. On the PC, you get stats of how good your connection and ping is where all that information is hidden on consoles.

 

There are 3 main ways that online gaming works.

 

First is a dedicated server where there will be a physical server everyone connects to.

 

The second is peer to peer (P2P) where we all connect to each others consoles.

 

The third is a client/server where all people will connect to the host and run the game on their machine.

 

There are obviously pros and cons for each, but thats another topic in it self so i wont go into it too much. Basically, a physical server is the best but requires the company to put up a massive investment in leasing or buying the servers. This would mean that they would charge a fee to play online. Most developers are opting for P2P as it requires no set up fees. Naughty dog was the only one to speak out about it and pointed out that they prefer P2P not because of money, but because if they were to ever go broke or couldnt afford dedicated servers, that the online part would be shut down so this means the game can essentially be timeless.

 

 

What basically used to happen (on dedicated servers) was that players with a high ping would be x seconds behind someone with low ping. This resulted in the players with low ping dominating others as they were essentially ahead of time. 

 

To try and balance things out and make online gaming accessible to players with all different internet speeds and from all over the world, they needed to introduce "lag compensation" which is an algorithm to try and make everyone see the same thing. 

 

The problem is that it is not an exact science and every players ping and connection will be changing every second of the game so its a tall order that the developers can even make the game run smoothly at all.

 

Personally i have noticed on GTA that during the same DM i will be playing crap for 5 mins with 1 or 2 kills and a lot of deaths and then it "clicks" and the last 5 mins i get another 10 kills with little deaths. At the end of the day, i think it evens itself out although there will definitely be some bad days where it seems all against you.

 

The developers on consoles hide all the connection stats and all this behind the scenes stuff. Its pretty much impossible to even measure and test that we are all playing on a level playing field. I guess console shooters arent as competitive as PC gamers so they havent bothered with it?

 

What i did find very interesting, and will pay more attention too now is how P2P connections work. Every developer will have their own code and method for how they do it, but im guessing that they are rather similar across the board.

 

Because P2P means we all connect to each other, The host of the job technically has an advantage. If 2 other people kill each other in a lobby, they will match up the time stamp of sequence of events to the host machine. It doesnt matter what YOU saw, but what the host saw.

 

Since then, some developers actively nerf the host so that they dont get any advantage. 

 

The other thing that comes into play which Vish mentioned was that it has to do with you geographical location. If the host is in america , then people closest to them should be better off (seeing what is actually happening) and people further away may see something slightly different. Lag compensation is meant to work to make it a level playing field and can be a hit and miss.

Another thing to note on this is that the hosts connection will have a rather dramatic effect on gameplay. If they are on a bad connection, everyone else connecting to them will be experiencing a bad connection.

 

 

All this information has been re worded from the article linked and hopefully gives you a rough idea on what is going on. Unfortunately i dont think there is anything that can be changed on your end to combat this. There are so many factors that decide what is happening on screen that it is very hard to pinpoint who would be at fault or causing the problems and the developers dont show any of this connection information either so yeah.

 

 

 

There are a few reasons why people are dying midroll, and depending on how observant you are, you may be dying fairly. Quite often, i will be laying bullets into them and they are almost dead, then they roll (too late) and they catch a few free aim bullets while rolling and die. This also happens to me frequently and i consider it to be a fair loss.

 

In the video when i died mid roll, i was killed in one shot which shouldnt have happened. G confirmed that i didnt roll on his screen which proves that it wasnt a fair kill. These kind of kills are more prevalent with shotguns for me for some reason?

 

But again, with all that said, i do believe that overall it works out fair enough. Everyone has had a bad experience at one point and some more than others. With out this lag compensation, we would only be playing with people locally and with the same internet speed and i would much rather hang out with you guys from all over the world and experience a bit of lag now and then.

[Onrefne 367]

 

Personally i have noticed on GTA that during the same DM i will be playing crap for 5 mins with 1 or 2 kills and a lot of deaths and then it "clicks" and the last 5 mins i get another 10 kills with little deaths. At the end of the day, i think it evens itself out although there will definitely be some bad days where it seems all against you.

this sentence got me the most. i don't consider myself a top player in the crew bc i am so hit or miss with my connection. one day i'll dominate and get 1 bullet headshots, the next i'm unloading full clips at someone and not hitting them!

and i forgot about the oh so famous, 'shot from behind the wall' after returning fire

[ScottyB 2,086]

So we had some really bad lag the whole night. Later we found out snacks had his ps4 running wirelessly. Later he got kicked from the session so let blame this on him

This is the video that I was talking about LN you killed me mid roll! Haha

[no_snacks 3,345]

Lmao.  The lag is always frustrating but sometimes it provides a few good laughs.

 

It's interesting Scotty, but I forgot to directly wire the PS4 to the router again today, so it was on Wi-Fi during two playlists, both with decent sized lobbies.  

Didn't have a single issue until the job hopping after Mr Jag's PL.  

 

Something I'm starting to noticed, my lag seems to be specific to certain crew members.  

G37 & Kristen are the most obvious ones.  I can hardly ever lock on to Kristen or G in a playlist DM, but can lock on to every other player in the same match.  

If G is in our free-roam or job hopping session, then I have trouble locking on to everybody in the session.  

It's very strange, but the pattern is definitely there.  It'll be interesting if other crew members experience the same sort of thing.

 

Here's some race footage from the same session, just before I got kicked.  

G kept on crashing & re-spawning 50 metres in front of me.       Had trouble uploading this, so sorry about the crappy quality.

 

A couple of weeks ago, there were no other crew members on except G & myself.  We were in a free-roam lobby & G was having a battle with a couple randoms.  He was killing them regularly, but I couldn't lock onto them or even see them until after they shot me. 

Edited March 21, 2015 by no_snacks

[ScottyB 2,086]

Wow that kill is awful! Nothing worse then that. When the car constantly does that it's so distracting. I hate it when it's always crashing and jumping around right in front of you!

In our free roam lobby just before it was going crazy and weird stuff keeps happening. I'll upload some footage later

Edit: just tried to check out the footage but I didn't save it what happened was we were driving around in free roam with the insurgent pick up and jag was using the turret. I jumped of the freeway and jag got thrown from the vehicle.

What I saw was her stay in the vehicle with her hands in the air shaking around, very similar to what girls would be doing out of their limo sunroof after a few drinks

So bummed it didn't save it

Edited March 21, 2015 by ScottyB88

[Onrefne 367]

omg that's totally how i would imagine Nightcrawler from xmen would drive!

[Burgermauger 262]

Ok, so I've been experiencing lag to some degree as well and have been running PS4 wirelessly. So I bought a Ethernet LAN cable just now and hooked it up. I'm hoping this takes most of my lag away.

[ronin 596]

Something I've noticed over time, especially with (T)DM's, is that in the first half I usually get owned like there is no tomorrow and in the second half I'm doing a lot better. Is there some catching up or compensation going on over the course of a job and has it got anything to do with lag? I'm well aware I'm the diesel type of gamer (need some warming up), but still I wonder ...

[G37 3,445]

Yeah unfortunately that lag is on your end Snacks lmao, funny video though. I think that was Scotty alongside me and he was bouncing all over your screen too, so that's a pretty good indicator something is acting up with your communication with the game.

 

The wireless connection definitely explains it. Kinda amuses me how under equipped the PS4 really is (don't hate) but I imagine a lot of the burden rests on how fucked up GTA is too.

 

I never have an issue with lag regardless of host although I can see it being an issue for DC or Scotty and Snacks who participate in NA centered events, the ping probably sucks. Which is .. interesting because if they host anything everything is fine. I won't pretend to fully understand it so it's much simpler to say "GTA blows" and we move onto the next humorous/frustrating experience to share and bitch about

[JustHatched 12,123]

I don't see lag often in GTA, or at least not a real noticeable degree other than shot mid roll and I run wireless 100% of the time. Wirelss from PS4 to cell phone, cell phone wireless to cell tower, dunno from there which makes me as about as wireless as it gets.